bending irons 2 degrees strong bending irons 2 degrees strong

Good luck! The GI/SGI clubs are basically directed to help players with lesser abilities to hit the golf ball, usually that also means lower swing speeds. Display as a link instead, If you are taking big divots with a 2 iron you have some serious problems with your swing. One other thing is that some clubs are designed from the factory strong lofted to begin with Taylor Made GI irons are a good example of this. I've never had a sand wedge bent, I suppose that could be an issue but if you open the blade a bit the bounce comes back. Great point I am a low ball hitter looking for more distance especially in my high irons. Remember, the set is not necessarily progressively consistent from one club to another, and therefore each club should be checked. The palms should be aligned, that is so that the two Vs formed by your thumb and forefinger should point in the same direction, whether a bit weak or strong from the neutral position. I have a 17-degree 4-wood, a 21-degree hybrid, a 26-degree hybrid, and a 29-degree iron as my longer (non-driver) clubs. Taking the destructive shot out of your game is key. That is a two club difference. They wont question a fitter who recommends that they switch to a 10.5-degree driver instead of an 8.5 or 9.5, because those are established as acceptable driver lofts. When you make the club loft stronger you decrease loft, when you make it weaker you increase the loft. TaylorMade M2 (2016) 9.5* (2* lower) HZRDUS T1100 75g 6.5 It is hard for some golfers to understand how irons with more loft can help them hit the ball farther, and this is understandable. You can also bend the angles to a consistent specification precisely fit for any golfer. The Wedge Guy: What really makes a wedge work. The G30 is a high-launching game improvement design. About time someone who knows what theyre talking about said what the the real deal is with loft and modern clubs. By NYonce. Since loft and bounce is connected, and cant be split no matter what we do. The 2 that were out the most went from 'avoided' clubs to 'favourites'! TaylorMade Aero Burner TP 15 / Matrix White Tie 70-X Bending 2* strong will increase the clubs digging tendencies. St Louis, MO. Its like that distance is just not filled. This is a list of all clubheads that clubmakers are not allowed to bend. I realize it is hard to write to such a diverse audience, but Im going to give it my best with this post, and pose the basic two questions to each of you : If the answer to No. Golfers should liken their iron fittings to that of a driver. After this long introduction, Nick keep preaching this gospel. Can you bend a metal wood? The incredible story behind Arnold Palmers $275,000 irons from the 1960s, OLD vs. NEW: TaylorMade Tour Preferred MC 2011 irons vs. My modern irons (Full launch monitor numbers), Legendary club designer Larry Bobka speaks on his new $599 blade irons, What are these?! The loft difference in the AP2 7 iron and AP3 6 iron is 6 degrees apart. Your email address will not be published. Generally though as you decrease theloft of a club by one degree, you reduce its bounce a degree at the same time and if you increase the loft by one degree you increase the bounce by a degree. This could cause them to dig at impact, and no one wants that. Well gee, I guess if you cant get a 7 iron in the air, you really do need some help haha. Upload or insert images from URL. Whether its changing the lie to improve accuracy or changing loft to make sure that the players clubs are progressively consistent, angle bending is a major factor in club performance. Usually weak, but occasionally strong, and if done intelligently where you don't hurt the clubs playability it's no big deal. It is common for a golfer with a swing speed of 70-to-80 mph or less to hit the ball with a lower trajectory than what is considered ideal. That means someone who has a ballflight thats too low, he delivers the head with less loft than needed, and by that less than the design of the head is meant to be played with, so he cant go wrong by tweaking lofts weaker. Reduce the loft & you reduce the bounce which, on the longer clubs, is quite small anyway. Club fitters are able to bend clubs to increase or decrease the lie angle using a loft, lie bending machine. And here is why. I was 50 yards out on the 3rd hole, and was in the moguls. Endycotts weakness so far seems to be the driver, and with his stats suggesting he recovers well top-15 for approaches in recorded events this non-penal track should suit. As long as the spin rate is acceptable, the new irons, because of their lower center of gravity, are going to produce more speed off the face (due to the lower loft and lower COG) and more distance. 16,822. I believe that you can't really bend your irons too much but to accommodate I am thinking of bending my AP2s 1 degree stronger and AP3s 1 degree weaker so that I have better gaping. Since such a precise hit is needed to take advantage of the lower loft, the average distance each club hits the ball tends to converge at lower lofts for less-skilled players. In turn creating around 12 more yds. You don't say what club it is, but Rev said it sounds like a long iron and I agree. By setting up with the ball 1" farther back in your stance, and all other things being exactly the same you are delofting the c, Intrigued by your debate, I did a little virtual bending experiment with a Taylormade UDI in Photoshop. Thanks for everybody for your help! May 23, 2016 at 04:54 PM. Introduce Yourself/ WIYB (What's In Your Bag), Lessons, Drills, Mental Game, and Fitness Tips. TM TP UDi #3, MC 4-7, MB 8-P w/ Tour V S+ However, even a degree difference can affect the direction where the ball might start out and can be the difference between you hitting the green, and you landing in a bunker! If you've got 2* upright and don't need that configuration, the heel will dig in and you'd pull the shots left (right handed). Loft and lie changes are more or less permanent. Weakening lofts makes zero sense to me. In The BagDriver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65xStrong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400. Even with limitations, many of todays metal woods are indeed bendable, especially stainless-steel heads. A typical #6 iron on the Tour is 31* on loft but Dynamic loft is average only 20.2 Thats basically what companies are doing anyway. I've never had a sand wedge bent. Privacy Policy Generall, Dont worry and overthink this like most doo. How much of static bounce is positive at impact?..we have to start from a static bounce of MORE than the difference to have any, and 31* minus 20.2* = 10.8 static bounce is needed to get ZERO. Yes, it would make the clubs a little 'longer' (with a lower ball flight), but it might not be worth . I meant decrease loft and make stronger. Hi! The question is, again, Do you really want to get better at golf?. 5 Testers Needed! I truly wish customers would do their do diligence before getting fit. Production Manager Wesley Turner: Five Years in the Bag. Copyright 2020 GolfWRX Holdings, LLC. Guess I dont get it. The fitter can then analyze a golfers swing pattern and adjust the lie angle accordingly. TM TPx. First, is it safe to have P790s bent that much? Titleist does recommend no more than +/- 2 degrees from factory and you should be ok. Any more and there is a risk of the stress cracks in the hosel area (primarily cosmetic). Yes, thats essentially what Im asking. Yes, it is possible to bend the irons 1-2 degrees stronger, but by doing so you would be reducing the effective bounce on the clubs. Or if youre playing in firm conditions, you might want more spin and a higher launch. would 2 degrees be too much and change the club's characteristics too much? The only way you would see a difference is if you put them side by side with another set of Ap2's that are not bent. Long story short, I'm about to have the 5,6,7,8 iron bent 2 degrees weaker, 9 iron 1 degree weaker, and AW 1 degree stronger. APPLY NOW: Cleveland Frontline Elite Putters! Callaway Epic - HZRDUS BlackCobra F9 3 Wood JavaScript is disabled. Putters have the least loft, usually from 2 to 4 degrees. It just depends. traditional lofts ftw (let the technology be what determines added length/distance, not loft changes). That said, no equipment can make up for poor fundamentals in your approach to moving a golf ball around three to four miles of real estate in the least number of strokes. ** Due to coronavirus and the work restrictions in place here in Michigan, for international orders, please email info@mitchellgolf.com for a complete quote. What I was hoping from this article was proof for that a current 46* MB/CB PW doesnt go any further than the 47/48* PWs of the past. You may want to try searching if you need more info. Sorry to be a jerk but this topic comes up quite regularly so there are dozens of threads in the archives discussing this same topic. Yes, the T200 can be bent 2 degrees flat and beyond 2 degrees upright Titleist manufactures heads 2 degrees upright which can be bent up to a further 2 degrees i.e up to 4 degrees from standard Please sign in to comment TUser January 21, 2020 at 08:09 AM Along the same lines, I got my new T200 irons late last year. Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid So glad this was posted. I was a little worried I might notice the offset or have trouble with hitting them fat, but they look perfect and play like they should. I do not find these to dig at all. You might as well get a distance gap before bending. Sorry to be a jerk but this topic comes up quite regularly so there are dozens of threads in the archives discussing this same topic. Since clubs are bent with iron bars by applying pressure on. Now as lower handicappers, we will probably not have our hands at impact fluctuating 3, 4 or 6 inches, but I would not say mine are within an inch of exactly the same place every time. database of over 140,000 golfers and in excess of 250 million shots recorded using performance tracking products such as the unique. Furthermore, he was 15th at the end of the first round on debut here last year and 11th after Thursdays round at the correlative Corales in the Dominican Republic. Adjusting 2 degrees strong will kill the bounce of your irons. For example, the first generation M2 5-iron has a loft of 21.5. So I changed my swing to compress the ball better instead, and just took extra club and swing easy. In 11 starts since gaining his place at the top level, the 26-year-old has made four cuts, including a first-time-out 12th at the Fortinet, 10th in Bermuda (led after a first round 62), 22nd at the American Express 7th after day one) and top-30 at the Plantation Course last week. Tour Preferred X or TP5x ball. I am glad you mentioned shaft length, static lengths for GI clubs, how it impacts flight, etc. Im also adding a 5 wood to the bag and changing to a 54/60 wedge set-up. Potentially, this would mean the toe digs in and your shots go right (right handed). Titleist Vokey 47* Oban CT 125, 51*, 55*, and 59* Shimada Tour Wedge Black Sure. A Good Fit for a Clubfitter is the Post Fit. Unless of course it's a long iron and you have a hard time elevating it in the first place. So the assumption is that the loft alone is what is creating more distance with the new irons. For you lower swing speed players, go to blades with weaker lofts or better yet go to an old vintage blades with the pitching wedge 52 degrees, and you can hit the ball farther hehe. having a discussion with a friend and we are in disagreement. If the launch conditions work, what matter the number on the club? Some get more spin, some less. I completely agree with this! After the back-to-back top-25s, he was a sneaky play at a long price for the Honda, but was never comfortable, withdrawing during the event with sinus issues. But what I dont understand is why you would need to weaken the loft of irons 2-3* when the gap between irons is 3-4*. It is common for the golfers I fit to hit todays irons, which average about 2 degrees less loft per club, as high as their current set (if not higher). Lynx Black Cat irons were set this way, so I had to have the 5 iron bent 2*, the 6 iron 1.5, the 7 iron 1.0 and the 8 iron .5 (this was my experimental set). We dont stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.. You can post now and register later. TaylorMade M1 15* Tensei CK Pro White 80X or I've bent tons of clubs. What the heck are they were talking about? I can't say that they have kicked my 716 ap2 out for good, but for now the 716 cb are staying in the bag! well unfortunately people buy clubs based on their ego and the club manufactures feed it. Military. I realize this can be affected by angle of attack, swing speed, iron/shaft design, and ball design. Thankfully gone are the days of everyone demanding s300 S or X when they dont have the swing speed to support them. Pasted as rich text. Compare that with 49-year-old Atwal, with a best of 49th place since 2021 and an average first-round placing of around 120th for his three starts in 2023, and Scott Brown, admittedly a former winner here, but now 719th in the world and who has, since September, withdrawn twice during tournaments, and missed his last two cuts (Pebble and Honda) ranking 99th and 136th for his first round he certainly looks wrong in every way. Add in the added forgiveness of modern irons, and you have a winning combination. I dont pretend to be an expert, or even close. Bending strong 2* decreases bounce by 2* and increases offset by about .75mm. Yes for that particular Ball Speed, the ball can not carry any further with a better stopping power than with those conditions. The fact remains that only stronger, faster swings can support lower lofts. Yes, it would make the clubs a little 'longer' (with a lower ball flight), but it might not be worth . I showed him all the stats on the monitor and he was in agreement but when it came to buying the actual driver he insisted on buying the 9.5 head with the TP after all the work on the launch monitor. -How much do you vary on club delivery for Angle or attack and Dynamic loft? on tight fairways. If so why mess with perfection. I'm fascinated by your basis for changing the lofts? Might actually help on hard ground. If the customer cant get the 4 iron in the air, pull that too and give them a hybrid that will get in the air. I would never ever think of doing this on my own. Brent Grantcould very well be one of the seasons fairy stories by September, having already secured his 2022/23 card with a stunning 50-foot birdie putt on the last hole of the Korn Ferry Tour Championship enough to finish 11th and sneak in. But, as lofts are strengthened the gaps become compressed on the long end and widened on the short. Hes happy to answer any of your questions! If the club has an abundance of bounce and/or a rounded leading edge, reducing bounce by 2* might not matter. I don't have any problems with the slight increase in offset and the lower bounce but if needed you could get someone to grind the leading edge a bit to put some bounce back. St Louis, MO. ProV1x-mostly. At a club fitting it was pointed out that I had about a 0 aoa and was launching a bit higher than ideal. While golf club manufacturers certainly try to make a consistent product, there are often inconsistencies in the lofts and lies of the clubs and they may not be progressively consistent from one club to another. I teach golf on the Eastern side of Michigan where I am the Director of Instruction for three golf courses. Your link has been automatically embedded. If this continues well end up with 25* 7 irons and carry 6 or 7 gap wedges. I know some pros naturally hit it higher, and some lower. Offset degrees especially with a long iron can be a factor along with sole design. 716 MB'S. Not a dispute with the OP, maybe even validation, but what about head style? The 4 iron will have a negative bounce if you bend them 2 degrees. Using like say an Older Macgregor blade butter knife with a thin sharp leading edge on the sole if you deloft more than 1 degree or so you have a chance of digging to China. Forged irons should be checked every year or 2 anyway for loft/lie. Bubba might better be able to answer that question, I know you can with the mb or cbs. In my experience I have seen guys in the 8-14 handicap range with moderate ball speed try X Hot irons, and see much better results with the Rocketbladez. What to consider when bending golf clubs. The MB and CB clubs you have need a bit more loft to get the ball launched well. We'll walk you through the process and offer some simple tips and trick. You will see it often when a pro, for example, will eliminate his 4 iron from the set and they may strengthen their 5 iron a degree or two and weaken their 3 iron a degree or two to even out the gaps. Lots of good comments here. The two things are diametrically opposed in meaning of course. Secondly, it also takes absolutely no athletic ability to learn how to set up in the proper posture to make a sound golf swing possible. If you really want to improve your golf, you must define where you are losing the most strokes and start there. It is a lot easier to find what lie angle you need in your golf clubs and purchase a set rather than have to individually bend each club. DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM. If you are a true sweeper that may be ok but you may not see that big distance gain you are hoping for. I will also need to bend my irons 2 degrees flat according to a lie board. Your email address will not be published. And visa versa, if the original bounce is low and/or the club has a sharp leading edge, the reduction in bounce may have a significant impact on playability. The speed of putts is crucial. But loft is a much more important factor in fitting. Or, is the bounce all the same? As far as lofts for amateurs go, I feel like long irons have to little difference between them. Iron lofts can be bent up to 2 degrees stronger than standard (note: making the loft stronger will increase the offset and reduce the bounce . My irons are bent weak partly to get the right launch conditions but also to reduce my draw. Hope I did not complicate this any and maybe helped you, Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Speeder 565 R flex---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*--- Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label --- PW Vokey SM-4 51* stock shaft--- SW Vokey SM 5 L grind 58* stock shaft--- Putter -- Rusty Scotty Santa Fe fluted Bulls Eye shaft---. As club fitters, you have to find the balance between measurable results and what the customer THINKS is happening. question on bending a forged iron 2 degrees strong By ssfranny, January 22, 2019 in WRX Club Techs Reply to this topic Start new topic ssfranny Lefty Boomers 3.5k Feedback 20 0 0 Total Rating 100% Posted January 22, 2019 Have a set of basically new MP 53s I want to bend them 2 degrees strong to make them play more a modern loft. OK, quick question. 716 MB'S It sorts my gapping out perfectly as a result. On the short end, as the pitching wedge loft gets stronger you end up with wider gaps in the scoring clubs. If you think about it, a flatter lie would be toe down for your swing. SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. At 100 mph you are obliterating the ground. IG: golfer_scott examples, keep you head down, hit down on the ball, you gotta swing inside out. In fact, a sound, fundamental hold on the club is the first step in setting up for a technically sound golf swing. More than likely you will hit the ball a bit farther as well, potentially close to 1/2 a club. While you might prefer the overlap, interlock or full-finger style, the hold on the golf club is pretty much the same the upper portion of the grip has to be under the pad of the upper hand and held more in the fingers than the palm of both hands. . Now I learned to shape the flight high and low at any given moment. Lets assume that the launch angle with a modern-lofted set of irons is ideal. I highly recommend that golfers get fitted before making a large purchase on golf clubs. I changed my Apex pro 19 2 degrees strong. Well driving iron to be exact. Tiger Woods plays his irons in weaker lofts and he doesnt seem to have any distance issues! I have plenty of X-flex swing speed and don't need the high launch (that just kills me in headwinds), but like the forgiveness on mishits. See below the make percentage for an average golfer from varying distances. This puts a 5 iron at 60* and that is way too flat for most people. Titleist 620 MB 5-9 Oban CT 125 The reason this happens has to do with an irons center of gravity (COG), because when you lower an irons COG you add a lot of potential height to a golf shot. i realize the distance and ball flight. So going 2 strong will remove 2 degrees of bounce. Late to the party but I was just searching this topic and saw your post, I just bought an old set of mizuno's that are bent 2* strong for the exact same reason as you stated above. Titleist U500 3 & 4 Oban Kiyoshi Purple Tour Reserve Custom Edel E-3 Putter. Undershooter Titleist 818 H1 19 HybridMiura CB-57 4-PW If anyone thought the Honda Classic had a below-par field, dont show them this weeks Puerto Rico Open. Todays golf ball travels farther than ever before and I dont see any need to jack up the short iron lofts. Ordering & Information You can post now and register later. Ball speed from the new irons is what is creating the distance. And you are right about the irons listed, X Hot is a shockingly low launching iron and the G25 would be the exact opposite, with Rocketbladez mixed in the middle. Worked very well IMO in terms of reducing spin You will need to check your distances with these gapped lofts. May 23, 2016 at 04:54 PM. make it a "digger" per say? Bending 2* strong will increase the clubs digging tendencies. That is why getting the numbers is so important. You dont need to bend the clubs. Say you have a modern set that is 3-PW, 19*-45*. This could cause them to dig at impact, and no one wants that. Good question. Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95 Thanks for the insight! I am in favor of weaker lofts. Product Instructions & Manuals A long iron doesn't have much bounce anyway since it was made to not take a big divot. Equipment counts courtesy of Darrell Survey. GolfWRX_Official Featured Section: Any knowledge on the subject would be appreciated. 00bolt, September 12, 2016 in WRX Club Techs. I know it will increase the bounce. Training Aids, GPS Devices, Apps, Accessories & More. I knew that bounce and loft have a 1:1 ratio but never thought that changing lie angle would affect swingweight but it makes perfect sense. And provided the hosel of the wood is long enough to allow the bending bar to fit over its length, metal woods can be bent to custom-fit a player. I always found it a bit strange that I could be 20-40 yards ahead of some friends yet hit the same distance with mid to short irons. He is also 1 of 33 TrackMan Masters in the world, and has completed thousands of successful fittings using TrackMan. Great article. Pasted as rich text. Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. Thats not to say this exotic land doesnt bring a classy winner. One good example comes to mind. All Rights Reserved. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I know my distances with the Ping set too well and I dont want to go through a whole season of trial-and-error with new irons, so would it make sense to have my new Mizuno irons bent to the old Ping specs? Clear editor. Are their ways to ensure a club wont break? I also don't mind the little more offset I don't over cut it. NOW AVAILABLE: GolfWRX G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos! Not every iron or wedge can be bent. Working through the grades, hisdebut, five-shot victory on the KFT,was backed up with a pair of top-10s and two-top-20s, easily enough to nab his PGA Tour card for 2022/23. Your golf ball starts off towards the left of your target (right for lefties). If they are not bent properly you can change the lie fairly easily unintentionally. Machines that adjust for all hosel positions, such asMitchell Angle Machinesare accurate regardless of the offset or hosel design of the golf club. TM M2 8.5* Graphite Design Tour AD GP 6X+ TaylorMade Rsi TP 3-PW (1.5* strong) NS-Pro MOdus 3 tour130 X On a driver? Lofts don't always come in 4-degree increments. But what about the mid and low irons, yes I understand some companies make 6/7 hybrids (7 and up is very rare), but you can not really replace an 8 iron with a true hybrid. Manage your expectations, dont expect to hit every shot close, Make smarter club choices based off the above, Be sensible: The middle of the green is a GREAT place to be, The average golfer will get up and down from a bunker, 1 out of 5 times, The average golfer manages to get up and down around 1 in 3 times, Short game shots from the fairway have the highest success rate. The bounce will be irrelevant to begin with in that case anyway. Pros and cons? The 27-year-old made his way onto the top level by virtue of his performance on the Korn Ferry Tour during the combined Covid seasons, and hes doing a great job in honing his craft. But there is a lot more to it than that. Military. You cannot paste images directly. On the opposite and gapping from AW to 9i is very wide about 16 yards about between clubs. It was suggested that I would bring my launch and spin down a bit with making my irons 1-2 stronger. How Long Do They Last, Driving Iron Advantages and Disadvantages, You are using clubs that are too tall for you (easy fix is to change the shaft length), You stand far away from the golf ball when making a swing. probably best to just change the shaft length), You stand tall over the golf ball when swinging, Your golf ball starts towards the right of your target (left for lefties), You hit the golf ball off the toe of the cub more often causing the clubface to open up and create push or slice. Clear editor. I'm not so much of a digger with long irons, and I thought about getting my rogue 5i bent a degree stronger and not carry a 4. Newer irons, however, are designed with a loft angle that is between 18 and 22 degrees. My name is Justin and I am a PGA Golf Professional. Paste as plain text instead, So, I am now waiting for a major brand to market and advertise that their new, weaker lofts will add distance for most golfers. Absolutely GREAT analogy RoverRick. Backups:Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip | SeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT. If you're after a driving iron, I would expect you to use it off the tee for the most part. Driver: G425 LST 9on Fujikura VENTUSBlue 5S, Fairway: G425LST 3w on Fujikura VENTUSBlue 6S, G425MAX 9won Graphite Design Tour ADDI7S, Utility: KING Forged Utility Black 4 on UST RECOIL SMACWRAP, Irons: KING Forged TEC Black5-Gon Mitsubishi MMT, Wedges:ES2154& Hi Toe Raw58on KBS Hi Rev 2.0, Putter: Triple Track Double Wide White Hot, Balls: Pro V1TP5xChrome Soft Triple Track x LS. I am wanting to bend my 5-PW one degree stronger and my 4 irontwo degrees stronger to fit better with my wedges and hybrid golf club. Brilliant information ! I've had plenty of clubs bent a degree or two and never had an issue with how the clubs performed, even a wedge. The average golfer hits 48 percent of fairways. I was thinking of bending my irons 3 degrees stronger as my ball flights were too high, but then there would be a big gap to fill between the pitching wedge and the gap wedge, and potentially more side effects of bending the clubs then. Yes, it is possible to bend the irons 1-2 degrees stronger, but by doing so you would be reducing the effective bounce on the clubs. Perhaps the lighter weight is good, but how many people fit into these longer lengths?